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I first uploaded these to Soundcloud in 2016. Blogged about that here I used HappyScribe to transcribe.

artlung · David Letterman interviewed by Howard Cosell

Howard Cosell: Hello again, everyone. I'm Howard Cosell. Welcome to Speaking of Everything. My guests tonight are the king of late night television, the elusive Hoosier, who has brought Indiana into a national prominence that it never remotely enjoyed. And the Bard of Queens, New York. Author, playwright, columnist, Pulitzer Prize winner, Jimmy Breslin. And we begin with David. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Howard. And let me just say here at the very beginning, you're goofy.
Howard Cosell: If I'm not, you've got a scoop. I'll say that. At the same time, I wonder if you can realize what a thrill, what an exhilaration it is for me to be in your presence.
Speaker 2: Oh, stop, please, just stop.
Howard Cosell: Listen, I've been very worried about you.
Speaker 2: From what standpoint?
Howard Cosell: Well, now that Hulk Hogan has lost his title in my hometown, I'll bring.
Speaker 2: Up irony of ironies.
Howard Cosell: That's right. Now, how has that affected your relationship, which was growing, though privately kept, with Hulk's lady Hawk's wife?
Speaker 2: As I understand it, she had photographic evidence to substantiate that the woman came up to me in one of the vast, wide, clean, brightly lighted supermarket aisles of the A and P in the Canaan, Connecticut, and announced to me and to everyone else there that she in fact was married to Hulk Hogan. The kind of thing I'm not sure you would announce anywhere. And was a perfectly reasonable woman. So right there I was suspicious that she even knew the guy.
Howard Cosell: I gotta tell you, you throw lines away so remarkably well. But I remember when you throw away line, that really troubled you. Later, it involved the major league pitcher, Terry Foster. You remember? Sure.
Speaker 2: A couple of years ago when he was pitching for the Atlanta Braves. And I think he was a late relief pitcher, not a stopper in those days.
Howard Cosell: You called him a tub of goo.
Speaker 2: Fat tub of goo.
Howard Cosell: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it was just. It was an honest observation because I was watching the Braves game coming up off the WTBs, whatever that hookup is, and listening to the guys doing the play by play. And he was coming in from the bullpen in the late inning situation. And they ran down all of his statistics, told us what kind of year he was having, on and on and on. Way more information about Terry Forster than anybody would ever want or need. But they failed to call attention to what I thought was supremely obvious, that the man was enormous. He was huge and his baseball shirt was just stretched to capacity. And I thought, I'm sorry, is this an old timers? Have I missed something? Is this a father and son game? I wasn't. And nonetheless, there Was Terry, as Dizzy Dean used to say, going through his preliminary warm up pitches. And I said, now how can this man, in that kind of condition, he must have been close to 300 pounds, be playing at the highest level of his sport?
Howard Cosell: Why did you so regret later having said it?
Speaker 2: I just thought that the choice of words, fat tub of goo, was very unflattering and probably more mean spirited, completely mean spirited. When in fact it was not meant in that spirit. It was more of a spirit of can a guy that size really be playing baseball? That was the spirit that it was meant in. And I think the particular phrasing, it sort of made me wince as I drove home. And then later I found out that he in fact had reacted angrily to that. But then his wife apparently had calmed him down by saying, well, he's right.
Howard Cosell: Does this happen to you often?
Speaker 2: It probably happens, yeah, it does happen. As you know, when you're doing a show that's essentially ad lib and nonsense scripted, you say things that come to mind that may have not been the best pre thought of images to be falling out of your mouth. I'll say a couple here tonight, Howard.
Howard Cosell: That's fine with me. You know that I've done a lot of shows with you and one of the things I want to talk to you about seriously, I thought I might have to carry you here. You're a very private man. You don't do this very often, and I understand that. And what about this shyness that's within you? This is a serious question.
Speaker 2: Well, it's. I don't know. In the beginning, when the show first went on the air and when you start a career in show business, everything is new and exciting and bright and fun to experience and experiment with. And so you go through that phase and you realize that 90% of what constitutes show business is probably not worth anybody's time. And then you get your own show, which I was very lucky to have been selected to do, and continue to be very lucky. And then you have to do a lot of interviews and so forth because you want people to watch your product. And under those circumstances is the combination of the two. I found that I was tiring pretty quickly of the central topic, which was me. And I also would see other people in television and films and so forth on interview shows talking about themselves and it just would curl my hair. I would think, oh, good heavens, you know, I would rather, rather hear from somebody who was working a line in Detroit or Carrie and Hod in Brooklyn building an apartment building than listen to Linda Evans whine about what time she had to get up and go to work in the morning.
Speaker 2: So I felt like if I'm responding that way to these people, I guess people are probably responding that way to me.
Howard Cosell: There's one. I'll get a call from a fellow named Richard Cohen throwing away a line of Linda Evans.
Speaker 2: Call her a fat tub of goo.
Howard Cosell: No, not Linda.
Speaker 2: But she's got no business in the starting rotation. She could be a reliever, but certainly not starting.
Howard Cosell: Whatever you say. How do you characterize yourself? And these are serious questions, but you can well handle them. You characterize yourself as a talk show host or as a comedian, a stand up comedian?
Speaker 2: Well, I've done both. I, I have done some stand up comedy and I realized from that experience that that's not really what I am. Because if you're doing stand up comedy, you've got to be willing to do it under any circumstance, 365 days a year and sometimes more. And you may have to do it the rest of your life. And I've done enough of it to know that I'm not that kind of person. So I guess I am maybe more accurately described as a person who hosts a television show, not a pure talk.
Howard Cosell: Show host, you know, who has great respect for you. He's really a good friend of yours. You know this as Jay Leno.
Speaker 2: Oh, ye.
Howard Cosell: And he called you an anti hero and called you a brand of comedy. Anti comedy. Do you see yourself in accord with that kind of thing?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm flattered to be considered by Jay as a friend of his, and we are in the same peer group. And I don't know that I would agree with the anti hero or anti comedy, although on any given night it might be tough to prove. But I think what he's trying to say is that we're looking to tread on tradition or not. Not tread on tradition, but to go against tradition.
Howard Cosell: You know, I, I marvel at your sweater. I never felt that sick anymore.
Speaker 2: Don't start with that, Howard, because there's some things about you that I'm marveling at right now myself.
Howard Cosell: Why not David Letterman? Of course. And we'll be back with David in just a moment. Welcome you back. And David, let's begin with this one. Does television, in your view, take itself too well?
Speaker 2: What aspect of life doesn't take itself too seriously? And certainly television is right in there. Yeah, I think so.
Howard Cosell: You really go at your company, General Electric, again and again and again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, they're boneheads. By and large, these Guys, how do.
Howard Cosell: You get away with that? And why are they boneheads?
Speaker 2: Well, you know how I can get away with it? It's because the people at General Electric go to lunch. And lunch, of course, a euphemism. And as a result of the medication they consume at lunch, are never up at 12:30 to see the. So I can pretty well say or do anything I want. And in that condition, they can't possibly operate their recording devices.
Howard Cosell: Now, one thing I love about you, although that's not happened to me when I guessed on your show, is the way you put down people.
Speaker 2: I can't put you down, Howard.
Howard Cosell: You could if you wanted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, but it would be.
Howard Cosell: It would be your last hurry.
Speaker 2: It would be like sparring with Mike Tyson.
Howard Cosell: No, I don't want to try that. That kid is so. He's awesomely strong.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Howard Cosell: And you do love sports, don't you?
Speaker 2: Well, sure. Who doesn't like sports? You know, I. Ye. Enjoy sports. Yeah.
Howard Cosell: What do you enjoy most?
Speaker 2: You name it, I. I enjoy it. And I. I find my interests changing a little as I grow older. But, you know, baseball certainly been a big love of mine for years. I grew up with the Cincinnati Reds, not actually grew up with them. It's not like they were.
Howard Cosell: Well, it was. Gave us the $890,000.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Howard Cosell: Everybody knows that you negotiated behind the scenes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. I did. I was able to slide that by Marge.
Howard Cosell: Now they've moved city, which was, as you remember, you called my attention to it Gabe Paul's very first training camp in 1929.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.
Howard Cosell: Your knowledgeability in the sports area is absolutely amazing. Thank you, Howard. You know, you've been quoted as saying, we go serious for a moment now. And I'm quoting, if the person seems defenseless, you have no business getting in there and hurting their feelings.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Howard Cosell: But if the person seems to be an incorrigible showbiz buffoon, I think they're a fad target.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think anybody in show business who comes away from our nightly telecast with their feelings hurt does not accurately understand their place in the world. I mean, if you're in show business, you have to understand that it's a show. And the only time that I ever get upset is when we have a guest who is in show business making huge sums of money on a weekly television show or making films, and they don't regard 12:30 to 01:30 our time period as an extension of show business. And they come in and they Just kind of loaf through it. That, that angers me a little bit because it's still a television show and, and anybody with any sense should be on their. On their best behavior and have that little preparation.
Howard Cosell: But we're.
Speaker 2: It's not. We're not going to turn the show into a hall of fame situation where we're paying homage to their latest TV movie.
Howard Cosell: You ever sit back and wonder how all of this was put together, how it's all worked for you, how important you've become in the late night arena and how many people are so devoted to you?
Speaker 2: I was beautiful. Lighter. What is this, Howard? Tiffany, that's lovely.
Howard Cosell: Next time around, take this one. Will you do me a favor? You can use it.
Speaker 2: And this, this, by the way, is plastic. That's very nice. I don't know. You know, if you think about it, anybody in any phase of life can sit down at any point in their adult existence and put together a list of people who have helped them. And some nights on my drive home to Connecticut, I'll try and remember all of those people. And literally the list would be who's helped you?
Howard Cosell: Who's insp. As an immediate reminder of the late Andy Kovacs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. He would be on the list. People from my hometown would be on the list.
Howard Cosell: Steve Allen.
Speaker 2: Steve Allen, absolutely. The guy who gave me my first television job back in Indianapolis for no reason, he gave me the job. I was 19 and a college student at Ball State University, and I went to the audition so unconfident and so sure that I would not get the job that I didn't even. I had a full beard at the time and didn't even shave for the TV audition. And yet still in all, the guy hired me. And if I had not gotten a position at that point of my life in television, I don't know that I would have, you know, without that reinforcement, I don't know that I would have had the confidence to continue. His name is Tom Bass, and I have not heard from him in literally years and years. I'd like to keep it that way.
Howard Cosell: I wonder where he is.
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know. He's not here. Oh, my God, Howard, don't do this.
Howard Cosell: And on that note, we'll be right back, David Levine. David, this is a serious question. I've watched your show so long, so many years, guested for you so many times.
Speaker 2: Have you really watched the show, Howard?
Howard Cosell: Absolutely, David. I've watched with awe the manner in which you've known Too big for the medium. So Gracefully. But seriously, if I had to think about one thing in your direction that troubles me, it's that you seem to have difficulty sometimes in interviewing women. Why?
Speaker 2: I suppose it goes back to adolescence when I was in high school. And not that I had a talk show then, but it just. Women, for me, were the final piece of the puzzle to drop into place. And I'm not saying by any stretch of the imagination that that piece of the puzzle has dropped into place, but it just. I just walked around like a. Like a bonehead for four years. And I know no more about women today than I knew when I was in high school. So I always find myself to be a little intimidated.
Howard Cosell: Really? I remember the unfortunate evening with Cher. Were you intimidated then?
Speaker 2: No, I was actually kind of queasy. Cher is interesting. Cher is in that category we discussed earlier about people in the show business and the discussion she's been on two or three times. And I guess the thing that distracted me about Cher was sitting next to this woman. Lovely, by the way.
Howard Cosell: Well, a good actress. I had my own difficulties with her when I did the old Sonny and Cher show and I refused to do a scene with her. So I know what you went through, especially when she called you her halfway profane name. What was it she called you?
Speaker 2: You know, what she called. But that didn't really bother me. I appreciated, actually, the honest expression of sentiment. I appreciated her candor on that. But it's diffic. Talk to a person who has tattoos on her body that she has never seen, tattoos that she will never see, unless you get some guy who's really good with mirrors and prisms and so forth. And I just. I was disturbed by that. You know, I just found that to be a little odd.
Howard Cosell: When you began TV all those years ago in Indiana, what did you set out to become?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I didn't know. I. I was hired as a summer relief announcer for the booth. That's when local stations around the country actually had a regular shift of announcers who would divide the. And three, eight hour shifts if they were on all day. And you'd sit in there and do station identifications and public service announcements and big sale this weekend with kroger's on Fryer Parks, that kind of thing. And then I started doing the weekend weather and from that point did everything you can do at a local TV station for about five or six years and didn't really know what I wanted to do, but that I just wanted to stay in television.
Howard Cosell: Have you become the David Letterman you wish to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Unfortunately, I think I've been cursed by having my dreams fulfilled.
Howard Cosell: I got to tell you, Liz Smith has written about an unhappy relationship between you and Brian Gumbel.
Speaker 2: Right.
Howard Cosell: Is this true?
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what she's written about. There is nonetheless an unhappy relationship between myself and Bryant, and it's all with Bryant. I couldn't be happier. He's angry at me and continues to be angry at me because we interrupted the primetime Today show a couple. A couple of years ago. It's hard to forget it because it was such a landmark in television. But. And I understand perfectly why he was mad at me because we. We interrupted what he does for a living. And I would be angry if somebody interrupted us here now. Well, not all that angry, actually, kind of grateful. But the whole thing was set up and developed and deployed by his then producer, Steve Friedman. And he said, we want you to do this. And it was his he not tell Brian about it. So therefore, I can see initially where Bryant would be mad at me. But then when the story unfolded, he should realize that his own producer had sabotaged him. I have nothing but the highest regard for Brian. He's all whining now about the fact that I never apologized to him. And the simple reason that I never apologized to him was that at first I didn't think that I was essentially at fault.
Speaker 2: And secondly, I heard rumblings in the building, as buildings are wont to do sometimes, that he wanted to punch me. And I thought, well, here's a guy, if he really wants a punch, wants to punch me, he's not going to be in a mood for it.
Howard Cosell: Lonnie went to Bates College on May 25, 1965, as you well know, in Lewiston, Maine.
Speaker 2: Oh, here we go.
Howard Cosell: That's right. He was one of the kids. But he wasn't really old enough to run down to ringside and scream fix, fix, fix. When the invisible punch destroyed Sonny Liston by Muhammad Ali. Let's leave that. You respect Brian, okay? Sure. I think so do I. He's a super talent. But is he one of those people who grown to the point now where he PA takes himself too seriously?
Speaker 2: I don't get a chance to see him much on the air because his show is on in the morning when I'm just finishing up the last of my cocktails. So I don't know. I don't know. I can't make that a judgment for you.
Howard Cosell: Anything else now that you look forward to?
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of a quiet idea. Kind of a Quiet dream. And I hesitate to even discuss it because it's down the road, at least I would like to become, you know, one day, if I'm not too old, a flight attendant.
Howard Cosell: David, let. And of course, we'll be back in just a moment. And somebody I must ask you about. He meant so much to you. The man who never hit, Buddy Bianca Lana never hit.
Speaker 2: But wasn't he described as a hero of sorts in the World Series?
Howard Cosell: Yes, he had a great series and got some key hits.
Speaker 2: That was called to our attention by one of our writers who is a real baseball maven fanatic buff. Pick one of those words. And he noticed that Buddy was a little light with the bat. And I think it was about the same time that Pete Rose was breaking Tycoon's record. And so he was looking at the other end of the scale and started projecting figures for Buddy Bianca Lana. And we just. I think the initial joke was a Buddy Bianca Lana hit counter. And he gave you the comparison between.
Howard Cosell: Buddy didn't take too kindly to that either. But he came around.
Speaker 2: He came. Buddy was actually very nice, very gracious young man. And he came on the show and gave me a bat, which I still have up in my office. And I believe Buddy is no longer with Kansas City.
Howard Cosell: I don't know. He was traded and he'll have to make his name through you elsewhere. But David, tell me about this luge team you're sponsoring, Calgary.
Speaker 2: Well, we're not sponsoring. We're just soliciting funds for the. We'd like to see the Americans medal in the luge. And. And this has pretty.
Howard Cosell: There they come. There they go.
Speaker 2: It has pretty much the same origin as does the Buddy Bianca Lana situation. And I watched a little bit of the luge coverage yesterday, and it's interesting to watch. I don't see franchises cropping up all over North America, people leaving their homes in the dead of winter to go watch indoor losing anywhere.
Howard Cosell: Now, I've kidded you in the past. I turn serious again for a moment about your relationship with Johnny Carson. What is it really?
Speaker 2: Well, professionally, Johnny Carson, again, he would certainly occupy a column of his own on that list we talked about earlier. He has helped me in ways that he's not aware that I realize. He has helped me. And it's through that show and largely because of that show, I think that I have a show at NBC and largely because we have followed him in the lineup that were still on the air, I think it would be difficult to put a show on after the Tonight show. With Johnny Carson and not do some business.
Howard Cosell: So do you have any secret aim to succeed in a job for which Jay Leno may be being prepared?
Speaker 2: Sure, I would get secret. Sure. I think everybody in the back of their mind sees themselves, especially if you're in a situation like I am or like Jay is. Now, where you think, yeah, that would be, you know, wouldn't that be nice to at least be offered the job? It's nothing that ever been talked to me about by the people of NBC, officially or unofficially, for that matter. And I think now the longer that our show succeeds at 12:30, the less clear cut a decision like that becomes. I just don't know if NBC is thinking that our show would be the automatic answer. I don't know what kind of show necessarily we would have to become to succeed there.
Howard Cosell: David, may I say something to you? I can't tell you how much I appreciate the candor, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart and honest which you're talking to me. I know I told you earlier how private a man you are, and I don't like to invade that area of privacy.
Speaker 2: Well, then stop coming by the house.
Howard Cosell: What do you mean coming back? The house isn't the same anymore. You broke up with a young lady.
Speaker 2: No, no. You said that we broke up. Didn't you just say that? Yeah, yeah, but I.
Howard Cosell: You know what happened?
Speaker 2: Well, nothing happened other than the separation is geographic.
Howard Cosell: In other words, that continues within you, that instancy of sexual dynamism that has set you apart from all other people.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. That is there and everything's still working. Can we all say that, Howard?
Howard Cosell: No, absolutely not. That's an excellent repost. Now, you mentioned earlier, I think that you have gone through the pain of having a show canceled. Everybody in this business does. Let me ask you again. All of the success now, it must be special because of the pain you went through in the earlier years.
Speaker 2: Well, you know what? The thing about it that is gratifying is that given the nature of television that we've been on the air for six years, I take some pride in that. And I don't think that we're in a situation where there is many sources of pride. Not a lot to really honestly be proud of. We're doing a show, it's a nickel and dime deal, and you slap them together as best you can. But the fact that we've been able to survive for six years means something to me. As far as comparing that to the anxiety of having one jerked out from under you. I'M talking about shows now.
Howard Cosell: Laughter in the studio.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I don't know, I forget what I was going to say, but I do know the low end of things. But I know that this show also will go away. 1. I mean, that's just the nature of the business.
Howard Cosell: The nature of the business and fame is transitory and so inevitably, deep within, there is always the fear, isn't there, that it will all disappear?
Speaker 2: Yes, for me, there is. Yeah. And I share this with. I guess everybody has a little of that. Some people, I think, feel that they have figured out the combination and just don't couch it perhaps as well as they should. But Jane, Pauly and I share this. I know, because we. A long time ago, we agreed that we're both waiting for the day when we get tapped on the shoulder and they say, okay, just take your money and go back to Indiana. You're done here. And it'll happen.
Howard Cosell: But that's not because of an absence, as you said, of talent. It's just the nature of the thing.
Speaker 2: Just the nature of the thing, Yeah. I mean, it would be sad for me if it happened tomorrow because when you're doing a show like that and like this and like many of the other shows you've done, the people that you work with become your friends, and it's so all consuming of you emotionally and of your time that it becomes more than a job. It becomes the basis for your, you know, being.
Howard Cosell: Turning to a lighter vein, is it possible you peeked out too early when you starred forevermore on the Battle of the Network Stars?
Speaker 2: Good Lord, Howard, you're the only one who bothers me about this.
Howard Cosell: And I thought I was so thrilled to see your athletic abilities.
Speaker 2: See, it's one of those situations where you think, yeah, I can be on that show and probably do pretty well. And I got on the show and I guess you were the host. Which is worse, hosting that thing or being on it? To me, to my way of thinking, you ought to be in more embarrassment for hosting the damn thing.
Howard Cosell: No, it got record ratings every time. You know that. And I found people like you more dedicated than many professors. Sparky Anderson was there.
Speaker 2: Now, that was a great thrill for me.
Howard Cosell: He leaned over to me and he said, now that kid's got what it takes inside the intangibles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a weekend of humiliation for me. And I forget who else else was on the team, but there were events in this. This bogus. This quasi athletic competition that I clearly had no business being in. But nobody else wanted to be in them. And having kind of this Midwestern notion of. Well, I guess I'll do it. I ended up making a fool of myself.
Howard Cosell: You could have been another Bobby Knight. Listen, I have to break it off. I can't tell you how grateful I am, how much I've enjoyed it, my friend. Well, I. With your permission, I'm going to take your Cuban cigar now.
Speaker 2: This is Cub, by Switzerland. From a friend. I broke no laws to get this.
Howard Cosell: No, I understand. The friend is Castro, and you've been very close to it. Thank you very much, old friend. Thank you very much. Speaking of everything, we'll be right back with Jimmy Breslin. And if you bump into him on the way out, say hello.
Speaker 2: I enjoy his work a great deal.
Howard Cosell: Thanks a lot.